TRANSCRIPT of the TONY BLAIR's INTERVIEW, FORMER PRIME MINISTER
FEBRUARY 3rd 2013
(Presented by Sian Williams in “THE ANDREW MARR
SHOW” )
SIAN WILLIAMS:
Can I turn to Europe, which is a
battle that David Cameron is having. At the moment he wants to reform Britain’s
relationship with Europe and then have an in-out referendum. You said that when
you heard his speech 90 per cent of it resonated with you; you agreed with 90
per cent of David Cameron’s speech on Europe. What about the in-out referendum?
Wouldn’t that be a way of solving things once and for all, drawing a line under
it?
TONY BLAIR:
Well it’s not a way of solving
things. I mean, look, if the case is why should Europe reform, I mean I’m 100
per cent with him and that’s the case been made by British prime ministers -
Margaret Thatcher, John Major, myself, Gordon Brown, everyone - and it’s
absolutely right. And by the way, step by step there have been significant
reforms in Europe as a result of that. So where it’s about should Europe
reform, I’m 100 per cent with him actually. It’s where you say but if it
doesn’t, then we want out. That … you know to put the out question on the ballot
paper, I mean first of all it creates … I mean we’re now in an uncertain
situation. I mean everywhere I go people say to me “Is Britain really going to
get out of Europe?” You can’t answer that question conclusively now. And,
secondly, the fact is the overwhelming likelihood is that what will happen is
he will try to get certain changes in Europe. He may get some changes in
Europe.
SIAN WILLIAMS:
He’ll only get them by saying
there’s going to be a referendum if you do it, surely?
TONY BLAIR:
I’m not sure about that because,
remember, other countries in Europe also have their politics. See if you’re
talking about reforming Europe, you’re talking about the interests of 27. If
you’re saying this is about Britain’s relationship with Europe, it’s one versus
26. So you’d better make sure that they’re all lined up behind that because if
they’re not and any one of them say no … I mean I can’t really believe David
Cameron thinks it’s sensible to get out of Europe even if he doesn’t achieve
all of that agenda. You see what I mean? So you’re in a situation where, look
obviously it depends if he gets re-elected, but you’re in a situation where
four or five years down the line, until then there’s uncertainty. And at that
point, you know who knows what might happen; and if Britain did vote to go out,
I think it would be a huge problem for our country. Because the thing to
realise about Europe today is the rationale for Europe is not about peace. That
was my father’s generation. The rationale for Europe today is power. You know
in a world of China with 1.3 billion people and India with over a billion and
increasingly because of mobile capital and technology, you know the weight of
your country’s economy is linked to your population. So in time to come,
Britain - sixty million people, you know a small island nation - if we want to
exercise weight and influence and power in the world, why would we separate
ourselves from the biggest political union and largest business market right on
our doorstep? So you know …
SIAN WILLIAMS:
If there is a referendum, you would
stand alongside David Cameron, Ed Miliband, everybody else who would be
campaigning to stay in the European Union?
TONY BLAIR:
Sure - if they campaigned to stay
in, of course. I mean if it got to that, you would be doing that. But I think
the tricky question is this. Supposing … Because, look, you know I’ve spent ten
years going through these European negotiations …
SIAN WILLIAMS:
And you wanted an in-out referendum
at one stage. We have to say that. In 2005, on the EU Constitution …
TONY BLAIR:
(over) No, no, not
an in-out referendum.
SIAN WILLIAMS:
Well hang on. “ I thought we might
turn it into a referendum that was effectively in or out” is what you say in
your memoirs.
TONY BLAIR:
Yeah, but …
SIAN WILLIAMS:
“I fancied mounting a really big
argument on the issue I felt strongly about, and on which I was right. Although
plainly a tough challenge, I relished the fight.”
TONY BLAIR:
Exactly, but that would have been a
referendum saying do you agree the new European Constitution or not. It
wouldn’t have been a referendum saying if you don’t, we should leave. Now the
fact of the matter is you know if we’d ended up … Look, I had to have a
referendum because Europe had proposed a new constitution. I was very reluctant
to do that, but in the end I accepted we had to have it. What we are doing in
this instance is not … Because this would be perfectly sensible if David
Cameron said, “I’ve agreed a certain amount of changes and now I want to put
those changes to a referendum.” That’s one thing. It’s the ‘out’ bit of it
because once you put that on the ballot paper, you know you’re then in a
situation where who knows what the circumstances will be. And the problem with
referendums, which is why you know you should only use them where it’s
absolutely necessary, is … I think it was General de Gaulle once said “it’s as
much about who asks the question as the question.” So you’ve got to be careful.
SIAN WILLIAMS:
I don’t know whether you heard
Deborah Mattinson earlier. Deborah, as you know, has been involved in public
opinion polling for thirty years. And she says at the moment looking at Labour,
that the Conservatives seem to have a message - whether it’s Europe or whether
it’s public sector reform - seem to have quite a clear message. When it comes
to Labour, the public aren’t quite clear what it stands for now. Are you?
TONY BLAIR:
Yeah, I think I’m pretty clear what
it stands for.
SIAN WILLIAMS:
What does it?
TONY BLAIR:
Well I think it stands for a
society in which you combine economic prosperity with social justice. That’s
always what the Labour Party stood for.
SIAN WILLIAMS:
But you had New Labour and Ed
Miliband sort of sidelined that in his conference speech and said right, now
we’re One Nation. What does that mean?
TONY BLAIR:
Well I think what it means is that
in circumstances where the country’s got very difficult challenges, it’s
important that it handles them as one and that you don’t end up simply
governing for a small group of people at the top. So you know I understand the
Labour Party message. And by the way what Ed’s trying to do is tougher than
what I had to do. When I became Labour Leader, we’d lost four elections, right?
This
is attempting to bounce back and
win after a heavy defeat, so that is a …
SIAN WILLIAMS:
But you have a clear strategy about
what Labour was and what it needed to do to win …
TONY BLAIR:
Sure, but I think he would say …
SIAN WILLIAMS:
… before you came in in 97. What is
Ed Miliband’s clear vision? What is the one big message he’s got to …
TONY BLAIR:
(over) It’s the
one you’ve just given, which is that if we face these difficult and testing
times, we should face them together; that the burden should be shared equally;
and that we’ve got to create an economy for the future in which opportunity is
given to the many and not the few. So I don’t think it’s a problem with the
vision actually. I think what there will be is a big challenge when it comes to
how do you translate that vision into practical policy, and that’s for later in
this year when the Labour Party will start to unveil its policies. But you know
this is a situation where the economy is very tough, where we’re going to face
the situation (whoever’s in government) where they’re going to be very
constrained, and that’s why it will be important for the Labour Party to show
they are reformers and they’re able to reform public services, welfare, the
state and so on as well as simply protect people who are vulnerable.
SIAN WILLIAMS:
So a clear policy has to emerge by
the end of this year? I mean that is what you seem to be saying if they’re
going to win the election.
TONY BLAIR:
They’re an opposition party. So I
don’t favour as an opposition party you know hugely detailed policy, but the orientation’s
going to be clear
SIAN WILLIAMS:
Do you advise Ed Miliband? Does he
talk to you about these things?
TONY BLAIR:
I talk to him, but I don’t … you
know I don’t presume to advise him or anyone else.
SIAN WILLIAMS:
You talk to David Cameron it
appears in the papers, yes?
TONY BLAIR:
I of course …
SIAN WILLIAMS:
Officially, unofficially, both?
TONY BLAIR:
I talk to him from time to time as
well. I mean I … Look, you know when you’ve gone through all this and you’ve
sat in the seat both as Leader of the Opposition and Prime Minister, you know
how damn difficult both jobs are. So I don’t … You know I come to it with also
a sense of - believe it or not - humility about this. I know it’s really
difficult and so the last thing I want to do with either individual, by the
way, is end up you know being one of those sort of pains in the neck that sort
of sit in the back seat saying “Hey, I would have done this and I would have
done that.” Now on something like Europe, you know I will speak out, but even
then I try and do it respectfully. But I don’t … you know for Ed and for David
Cameron, if they ever want help or advice, I would try and give it in what I
thought was the best interests of the country.
SIAN WILLIAMS:
So much more we could get through,
but that’s all we have time for. Thank you very much, Tony Blair.
TONY BLAIR:
Thank you, Sian.
INTERVIEW ENDS
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